The Glenn Beck Report

Deconstructing Glenn Beck Lies

The 12 Values Deconstructed

with 52 comments

Glenn Beck’s 912 project is based on lies and hypocrisy, and the lying hypocrite that shoves them forth. His 9 values were explained on his site, and Wexler here at glennbeckreport.com has done an excellent job of debunking them. The 12 values, on the other hand, are simply words that are very much open to interpretation. I’m going to take a shot at looking into exactly into what these values mean, how foolish they are, and how hypocritical it is for Beck of all people to ask that they be followed.

1. Honesty

Hon.es.ty
The quality or fact of being honest; uprightness and fairness

Because Glenn Beck is our favorite honest man. I could spend plenty of time laughing at how hilarious it is that Glenn Beck wants people to be honest, but instead I’ll just send you here: http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-lies/

2. Reverence

Rev.er.ence
A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

Wait, what? Reverence for what now? For science and the wonders of nature? For the ease with which non-religious people can coexist? For how amazing it is that we actually have a black president? Well, Beck’s never been particularly fond of any of these things, so I’m assuming that he means reverence for his imaginary friend that some like to call God.

I have written and debated extensively about the existence of God, and the attributes of such a being. Here’s what people need to realize: If there really is an omnipotent, omniscient god, we don’t need to be respecting him or revering him. We should hate him. All the people that he has killed or allowed to die? The rapes, thefts, murders, sorrow, horror, stupidity and general hatred that he has allowed to occur? If there is a god, God is the worst type of psychopath, and respecting him is the absolute last thing that anybody should be doing.

3. Hope

Hope
The feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best.

Hope, when it comes to politics, is the worst type of foolishness. I hope that religion will get the hell out of government. I hope that all Teabaggers will suddenly realize that they’ve been indoctrinated and lied to. I hope that homosexuals will be regarded no differently then heterosexuals. But will any of these things happen? No time soon, at any rate. So rather than sitting on my ass and wishing that my dreams would come true, I go forth, I try to change people’s minds, and I vote in every election that I can.

4. Thrift

Thrift
Economical management; economy; frugality.

Where on Earth does Glenn Beck get off telling people to be thrifty? Maybe he means the kind of thrift that he exercised when he bought a $60k DeLorean (and drove it while wasted with a door open). But really, now. Beck is filthy rich. His annual income is estimated at around $25 million per year. And I think that this value of his is just another part of his crazy capitalism manifesting itself – he thinks that poverty is something which can be controlled easily, that simply by being thrifty a person may become just as filthy rich as he is. Another idea is that the entire thing has its roots in religion – that one will need to save as much money as possible in order to tithe to their church. Seeing that Beck is Mormon (raised millions from their followers to illegally fund Prop 8), I think that he’s no stranger to the church asking him to give them large amounts of money.

5. Humility

Hu.mil.i.ty
The quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one’s own importance, rank, etc.

“Hello, America. I’d just like to take a quick break from my show to endorse my bestselling new book, the Overton Window. This book is just… this is great, it’s a fascinating look at truth today, and don’t be surprised if you even notice some names or concepts that you might know or recognize from history. Now see, see this page here? Look at this name – do you recognize that? Who’s that? Anyway, it’s on sale now, just 25 dollars, you can pick it up at your local bookstore.”

And the fun only starts there. I’m not a huge Olbermann fan, but I would definitely recommend checking out the video here. It’s not all about Beck, but watch the section that’s about Liberty University. I actually laughed out loud.

6. Charity

Char.i.ty
Generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill or helpless.

At this point, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard one idiot or another say that nobody can tell them what to do with their money. Does the cult of Beck not realize that their taxes pay for social programs and benefits for those less fortunate? That darned socialism, always being charitable. No wonder the conservatives hate it.

But perhaps by charity, Beck means tithing to a church – as long as it’s not one of those foreign ones of course. Beck himself is a Mormon – the church that so recently passed Proposition 8 (banning gay marriage) in my home state of California. The Church approached its members and asked (many would say forced) them to give just about as much as they could without bankrupting themselves , in favor of this hate legislation that they were illegally trying to pass. I would say that giving your sizable savings up to a cult so that they may take rights AWAY from people, does not exactly count as charity.

7. Sincerity

Sin.cer.i.ty
Freedom from deceit, hypocrisy, or duplicity; probity in intention or in communicating; earnestness.

By definition, we can just go ahead and tie this in with Value 1, honesty. Please go ahead and visit the same link that I pointed out for that one: http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-lies/

But Beck is certainly not free from deceit. Hypocrisy has become (at least to those that are aware) synonymous with his name. And probity in intention or in communicating? I almost laughed out loud at that one.

8. Moderation

Mod.er.a.tion
The quality of being moderate; restraint; avoidance of extremes or excesses; temperance; the act of moderating.

I’d just like to say – HAHAHAHAHA. Oh… this is the funniest one here. Firstly, I’d like to talk about Glenn’s single-handed ability to prove Godwin’s law. I don’t think I’ve seen a single episode of Glenn Beck’s show in which he has not compared somebody or something to Nazism. Glenn Beck, and his brand of entertainment “newscasting”, is the very antithesis of moderation.


9. Hard Work

Hard
Difficult to do or accomplish; fatiguing; troublesome.

Work
Exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.

Hm. Interesting. One one level or another, this might be something that Glenn actually does. I certainly would have to work hard to pump out as much crazy garbage on a daily basis as he does. But really, I don’t think we can count this as a real value that Beck can preach without being a hypocrite. The main followers of Beck are those that are poor and/or uneducated. Bible this, Bible that, and sprinkle in a bit of “medicare not socialized medicine” for flavor. So what do Beck’s 912ers work hard to do? Do they work hard to ignore the facts? Do they work hard to pray to Beck more than God? Do they work hard to personify Jesus as a gun nut? Please.

10. Courage

Cour.age
The quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear; bravery.

Glenn Beck, for me, personifies the modern day of right-wing fear. Glenn Beck and his followers are scared. They are afraid of change. They are afraid of things and people that are different from themselves and their opinions. I think that without fear, people like Beck would not even exist. We may have conservative opinions, but I doubt that we would have such hatred, racism, bigotry, and lying that plague the religious right. In fact, I think it’s even possible that religion wouldn’t exist without fear.

And what about all the people that he shouts off the air? A courageous man would be willing to engage in a fair debate with somebody that had a dissenting opinion. A courageous man does not shout someone down because they don’t want to deal with their opinions. Both of the administrators at this site have already proposed a fair debate with Beck here, for which we’ve gotten no response. So please, Beck. Don’t take some ambiguous value that people see as positive, and pretend that it represents you, your group, and your thought processes.

11. Personal Responsibility

Per.son.al
Of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private.

Re.spon.si.bil.i.ty
The state or fact of being responsible; a thing for which one is responsible.

So, what are people responsible for? Well, we’re responsible for obeying the law. Beck struggled with illegal substance abuse for years, failing in that. We’re responsible to tell the truth. Beck fails in that on a daily basis. We’re responsible to educate ourselves. Beck fails in this every day as well.

So what is it that Beck thinks that we’re personally responsible for? Really, I think the truth is sadder than we’d care to admit. I think that in Glenn Beck’s delusions, he actually agrees that we’re responsible to keep ourselves educated – but he doesn’t realize what the truth is. He thinks that people are responsible to believe that all liberals are socialists that want to take your guns away. He wants to make believing his insane doctrine everyone’s personal responsibility. This, readers, is not a value. This is a travesty.

12. Gratitude

Grat.i.tude
The quality or feeling of being grateful or thankful.

“I might not agree with you, Obama, but thanks for being black.” “I’m going to yell at you and not listen to anything you have to say, caller, but thanks for calling.” “I might hate you, minorities, but thanks for making our country work.” “I might hate you too, socialists, but thanks for inspiring all the systems that I rely on.” “You’re going to hell, heathens, but thanks for not starting as many wars as the Christians.”

Next time we hear Beck saying any of these things, THEN we can consider gratitude as a legitimate value.

Written by admin(Quinlan)

July 19th, 2010 at 11:30 pm

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52 Responses to 'The 12 Values Deconstructed'

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  1. I was thinking it made a little sense up untill your little tidbit about God–
    for one thing, “The rapes, thefts, murders, sorrow, horror, stupidity and general hatred” are caused by people, not Him.
    And he doesn’t stop them from happening because the whole concept of Christianity(For one God-fearing religion)is that whatever happens to you in this life doesn’t matter. Its not about having the best time or being able to own big mansions, or even having a house to live in. Its about the decisions you make.
    Lifes not supposed to be a walk in the park, and if you knew the Bible you would know that.

    – Thanks for allowing posts on this website, its a great way to be fair and allow people to have their input, and i respect you and all the other administrators on this website for it.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    26 Aug 10 at 4:27 pm

  2. Hi, Donny…

    I am going to let Quinlan respond to your post because although we are both atheists, (sometimes I waffle between that and agnostic) he does a better job of arguing the case.

    Thank you for your post and Quinlan will answer it soon.

    Wexler

    admin(Wexler)No Gravatar

    26 Aug 10 at 4:39 pm

  3. Hi Donny,

    Thanks for your comment and the etiquette with which it was phrased. That’s a skill that not enough Christians have managed to learn.

    Let’s first bring up an example of rape. A woman is raped by a man. The woman is innocent, and has been good and avoided the worse of the sins for her entire life. As you probably know, rape can be a life-shattering experience for a person. It can make somebody depressed, frightened, sometimes it can even make them want to kill themselves. So let me ask you, why does God not stop this rape? He has the power to. He could forcibly stop the man from interfering with her, he could put them in different areas, or he could just wipe the idea of rape from the man’s head. Why does he not do so? I think it’s because he is either cruel, or because he is non-existent.

    Let’s continue with this analogy. The woman who was raped became pregnant. She did not want to be raped, and she does not want a baby. She knows she would not be a good mother, and she is not ready for a child anyhow. However, for whatever reason, she refuses an abortion. She goes into the hospital to give birth. She dies in labor, and the baby is also a stillborn. This could have been avoided by abortion, but apparently that’s against the will of God. It could have been avoided by the rape not happening, but God neglected to stop that as well. Why did the woman die in labor? I say it’s for one of two reasons: either God likes watching innocent women die, or he does not exist.

    Why did the baby not live? This baby had never done anything. He had not sinned, he had not had a chance to do a single thing. His brain wasn’t even functioning beyond the level of a fetus. Why did the baby die? I say it’s either because God is cruel, or he does not exist. Now, if there is a god, the baby who never had a chance to live is doomed to never see heaven. Why would God set into motion this whole dismal series of events? He could have intervened at any point along the way. So as far as I can see, if there is an omnipotent god, he wanted the rape to occur, he wanted the woman to get pregnant, and he wanted both mother and child to die.

    And then what? What about all the family and friends of the woman that are affected? God does not care about their remorse. More unfortunate events will set into motion around them, and GOD NEVER INTERVENES. This is why I see the only even slightly plausible explanation of God to be the deistic one – where he created the universe and then left. I see it as more likely, however, that there never was a god. Because even under the deistic view, we’d have to accept the idea that God was cruel enough to make a world and then leave it to suffer.

    Thanks again for your comment, and I look forward to your reply. I have plenty more examples if you’d care to hear any of them.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    26 Aug 10 at 5:06 pm

  4. I want to thank you for such a speedy reply, thanks!
    I see exactly what you are saying- and this is a misunderstanding that alot of people have.
    It’s hard for me to explain, to tell the truth.. Its really, to tell the truth, like trying to cover an entire series of lessons and studies in a single blog post, while still trying to make it simple to understand.
    A good example to explain this is like the story of Job in the Bible’s old testament. I would like you to look it up sometime, if you have never read it.
    simply put, job was a man who had a great life going. he owned tons of cattle, had many sons and daughters(which was was a great sign of wealth back then.. and still is, i’d say), and such. he was rich, and he also beleived in God. Well, one day the Devil challenged God, saying something along the lines of “I bet i can get him to curse your name.” God says something like “Ok, but just don’t touch his personal well-being”. So, what the devil does is wreak havoc on job’s life. all his cattle die, he basically loses his wealth, and his sons and daughters are killed all at the same time. in fact, job learns all about this all at the same time. His wife starts telling him that he should curse God’s name, because he wasnt evil in the sight of God, and this stuff was happening to him anyway. Well, job didn’t do that, surprisingly enough. Well, the devil saw that all this wasnt enough, and so something happened with his agreement with God, and the devil made him break out with boils. (boils is a very painful disease causing large amounts of dicomfort). so job ends up laying on a large pile of feces(because of the discomfort caused by the boils). So, this man lost everything, including his health, and he still did not curse God. he didn’t call him cruel, or evil. He could have died, right there. in fact, the most that he does is question God’s wisdom. never does he call him evil. the point i’m trying to make is that this horrible tragedy happened to him. I’m not going to argue about whether its as bad as the rape of a woman, but the idea is to hang on, even in such bad times. I hope this kindof cleared things up a bit. I’m going to make another post and then try to answer all of your questions.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    26 Aug 10 at 11:47 pm

  5. Hi Donny-

    I haven’t actually read the book of Job in the Bible, but I am familiar with it. You may be surprised to hear that it’s one of my favorites.

    Here’s the way that I’d put it: Satan asks if he can make people miserable for no apparent reason. God says yes. God allows innocent children to die, and this poor miserable man to become diseased and miserable, for no good reason whatsoever. God allows all of this evil to happen despite being able to stop it at any time. I don’t see any way out of that other than cruelty and sadism.

    Thanks for the comment.
    -Quinn

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 12:10 am

  6. Here’s another Biblical favorite of mine: the wife of Lot. They were fleeing from Sodom and Gomorrah, and she is told not to look back. Well how could she possibly help herself? God supposedly gave us all curiosity, and I think two entire cities being obliterated behind her would force just about anybody to look back, if not for curiosity then for fear. She looks back, which God could have stopped her from doing, and she is permanently turned into a pillar of salt.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 12:23 am

  7. ok, that happened to Lot’s wife because she disobeyed God’s direct command. He said “Don’t look back” and she looked back. As you probably have noticed, God dealt with things alot differently and he was alot more involved in the o.t. There are several reasons for this: A showing that God really can do this stuff, the fact that people did not understand anything past what was physical, and so had to be punished in life so they could somewhat understand, and several others i can’t really think of right now.

    and as for job, well look at it this way: Satan asks if he can make people miserable for no apparent reason(him in a nutshell). God says yes. God allows innocent children to die, and this poor miserable man to become diseased and miserable, why? because its not about life. thats something that God tried to make people understand back in the old testament. it’s about what is after life that is important.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:00 am

  8. satan, to any follower of God, is nothing more than an enemy to overcome. Life isn’t about what we want, its about what God wants. We, according to whether or not we have been doing what he’s told us to do, will either enter Heaven, or Hell. It’s our choice from the beginning.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:04 am

  9. In the last one, i read this:
    “You’re going to hell, heathens, but thanks for not starting as many wars as the Christians.”

    I just want to point out that real Christians don’t start wars.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:07 am

  10. “Real Christians don’t start wars.”

    See, the problem is that nobody can agree on what is a real Christian. Some would say that real Christians stone adulterers, while others never commit any violence. Some say Christians should hate gays, other say they should accept everyone. Christianity branches out so much, nobody really has license to say who is a real Christian other than God himself. And he’s not piping up.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:41 am

  11. No, you see, heaven or hell is not a choice. Firstly, God has never proven the existence of these places. How can he expect people to plan their lives to be pointless if he doesn’t prove an afterlife? And then, remember the rape baby I brought up. According to many Christians, he doesn’t get to go to heaven. That was not a choice of his.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:43 am

  12. First of all, if I’m remembering correctly, the command was not God’s it was the angel’s. And again, God could have stopped her. He could have made it so that she was no longer curious. He could have made her deaf as to not hear the chaos behind her. He could have made her head rigid so she could not turn around. But you see, he did not do any of those things. God wanted Lot’s wife to die.

    Why does god never directly intervene with anybody anymore? In the Bible, it seemed to be second nature for him to strike somebody down, to speak to people directly, to make miracles occur. And now, it’s almost like he doesn’t exist. Coincidence? Or perhaps the Bible is just what it appears to be: a book.

    You see, your entire argument is based on the idea that life is pointless. And if God intended for people’s entire lives to be dedicated to only getting into Heaven, why did he make it so hard? Why does he make disease so that people’s quest for holiness is cut short? Why does he create distraction? Most importantly, why does he create so much evidence AGAINST HIMSELF?

    You see, people want God to exist. On some level, I can understand that, people want meaning and understanding. But just because you want something, does not make it real, and it does not make it rational.

    Thanks for your comments.
    -Quinn

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:49 am

  13. Thats true. here is alot of disagreement on what a Christian is. That is because people like to do what they want to do. The truth is that the Bible lays out distinct rules to follow, and many people, im ashamed to say, like to “tweak” these rules for their own benefit. In both the Catholic and Lutheran churches (unless i’m mistaken), the idea of the use of intsruments in worship was originally thrown out the window(so to speak), by he leaders of those churches at that time. Now you see that the Lutherans use intstruments, and so do the Catholics. It’s the same with everything else.
    If God “piped up” this would still happen. the only difference is that there would be alot less athiests.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:50 am

  14. If God piped up and told people the rules in a clear format, there would be very few atheists, and those doing wrong would know that they were doing wrong.

    The Bible does not lay out distinct rules to follow, in any way. It contradicts itself on so many occasions, it’s ridiculous. And what about all the bad rules the Bible lays out? Did you know that the Bible says it’s okay for a father to sell his daughter? The Bible says that one must not eat shrimp, and it also says that one must also not wear clothes made of mixed fibers. So chances are if you’re enjoying a cocktail in typical street clothes and have never sold your daughter, you’re a big-time sinner.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:54 am

  15. It’s quite late here and I’m going to go to bed. Feel free to post more comments, questions, and responses, and I will approve and reply as soon as I wake up.

    All the best,
    Quinn

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:56 am

  16. Quinn, why should God directly intervene? what’s the point? The reason he did that in the O.T. was to make people understand then, and now.
    the angel represented God, everyone knows that.. and its not all about getting into heaven, its just the motivation that God gives us. what matters is what we do in life. not what happens to us.
    And as for the evidence against himself, i personally beleive that there is supposed to be an intangible evidence.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 1:58 am

  17. I’m not sure what you mean by intangible evidence. How am I supposed to believe in God if I have no evidence? It’s like telling me that you really do have an invisible friend just because a book says so. In fact, that’s exactly what you’re doing.

    God should directly intervene because he has responsibilities! Why would a responsible, loving, omnipotent God allow and desire so many people to suffer or die without giving them any chance to get into heaven? Without even giving them a chance to believe in him?

    You’re giving me mixed messages about life. First you say that life doesn’t matter and that it’s the afterlife that’s the big deal, and now you’re saying that life is a big deal and heaven is just an incentive.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 2:03 am

  18. Sleep sounds really good.. i think i’ll go do that too.
    but one last thing, i want you to tell me the places where it contradicts.. that would be interesting to study.
    And the Bible DOES lay out distinct rules. tomorrow i’ll give you some of the places to look at.
    Also, im pretty sure that selling one’s daughter(into marriage) was commonplace back then. It was a custom, even though it might seem kindof weird in today’s world. (I mean, i wouldn’t sell my daughter..)
    and as for the shrimp and mixed fibers.. thats pretty weird.. can you give me the passages to look up on those too? thanks.
    And you never said it was a sin NOT to sell your daughter off.

    Good night, if i ever get a little heated- my bad. Just remember that i respect anyone who holds to their beleifs. I might not agree with them, and i might not think theyre going to get to heaven(and i’ll try to change that), but i respect them.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 2:09 am

  19. well, in a way it’s both. God wants you to follow his orders not just because you want to get to heaven, but also because you to want to follow his orders.. do you understand?
    The Bible teaches that Christians need to continually preach the word, the more we teach, the more people hear.
    and yeah, there is no evidence saying God is real. theres lots of stuff that points toward that conclusion(for example, the dead sea scrolls, storys of great floods found in ancient ruins, etc.), but nothing specific.
    Just that science, in all its logic, has never been able to kill off the idea since(in my opinion) the begininning of time.

    Good night, buddy.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 2:30 am

  20. Shrimp an abomination:
    Leviticus 11:9-12 and Deuteronomy 14:9-10

    Mixed fibers (and some other wacky things) an abomination:
    Leviticus 19:19

    In terms of the father selling the daughter, actually the Biblical instance wasn’t marriage, it was slavery. But I’m so glad you brought up your reasoning, because it’s one of my great lines of reasoning as well. You say that this was something that was acceptable back then. And you seem to think as if, since it’s not really culturally acceptable any more, that it’s something that’s morally wrong. Well you see, the Bible phrases it as if it’s okay. The Bible is full of instances and endorsements of misogyny, slavery, violence, racism, and more. The Bible does not look down on these things (when it does, that’s an instance of hypocrisy), usually it endorses or just mentions them in passing.

    So let me ask you: it is now culturally acceptable (in most places) for two men to sleep together, to eat shrimp, to sow whatever kind of garden you like, and to wear what clothes you like. These are all sins or abominations according to the Bible. Is everybody that’s ever put on a sweater going to hell?

    You see, the Bible was indeed written by the cultural norms of the time. But that doesn’t make what it says okay, it just makes what it says very outdated. Did people own slaves back then? Yes. Was it okay? According to the Bible. So you see, in with all of the good morals that people like to look to in the Bible, there are mixed in a ton of stupid, wacky, or straight up evil ones as well. I don’t care how many times the Bible says to love thy neighbor, it still says to kill people and mistreat women.

    It’s pretty ridiculous, the Biblical rules people do and don’t choose to follow. I don’t think you can call yourself a real Christian if you’re not practicing every single one of the rules that the Bible teaches. Plenty of people have a cross on their door, but they never go out to stone adulterers, and whenever they do they’re wearing fancy clothes. You see? I’ve never heard of a single Christian that’s managed to be a good one. In fact, I think it’s impossible – the Bible contradicts itself so much, I don’t think it’s possible to get the true meaning and real intended teachings out of it.

    Thanks for this continued exchange, it’s something that I enjoy doing and that it’s good for readers to see.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 11:22 am

  21. Sorry, could you please explain to me how the dead sea scrolls are evidence of God? In terms of cave paintings, well, there are multiple explanations for that. One idea is that a great flood was just an old myth/story, and like many stories, ancient people drew it. Maybe the Bible ripped that off, like it ripped off so many other things (did you know that Krishna is essentially an Indian Jesus, but was created hundreds of years earlier?). Or perhaps there really was a flood, and the illustrators chose to exaggerate that. I could give you a better analysis if you could send me a link to the pictures.

    You see, the problem is, God gives me no reason to follow his orders. He gives me no evidence that he ever gave orders, that there is a heaven or hell, that he even exists.

    Why is the Bible more believable than any other book? The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy? Harry Potter? Frankly, I’m more inclined to believe in intergalactic travel than God. Intergalactic travel is simply a matter of science and will be attained in a matter of time. God, with all of this evidence, both physical and philosophical, stacked up against him, is all but fiction.

    You see, science can’t disprove god, at least to my knowledge. How am I supposed to disprove your invisible friend? Well, he’s invisible, and he only talks to you, and we can’t see any evidence of him. In fact, we see plenty against him. But by the very nature of being an intangible, invisible friend, we have absolutely no way to disprove him.

    Have you ever heard of Russel’s Teapot? Basically, the idea is, he creates something incredibly outlandish, but he goes to great lengths to make sure that nobody can disprove it. He goes on to say that this idea (a teapot orbiting the sun) is completely foolish, but if it were taught as fact and worshiped every Sunday, then people would still believe it. Just because something is popular, does not make it rational and does not make it real.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 11:35 am

  22. First of all, i want to point out that Christians do not follow the laws mentioned in the old testament. we beleive that when Christ died, the old laws were done away with and replaced by the new. Therefore, those laws mentioned in leviticus and dueteronomy and such do not apply today.
    Also, although slavery is not condemned, in Col. 4:1(KJV) commands: “Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.”
    As for killing people and mistreating women, please give me a new testament example and i will study it, but as far as I know, there isn’t a place which says to do that.
    If you want, i can introduce you to many good examples of a Christian. remember, though that no one is perfect- everyone has issues.
    And i want you to show me an example of the bible contradicting itself. It would be a great thing to study, and hopefully clear up.
    thanks, and yeah– this is pretty cool.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 5:37 pm

  23. i agree, those are by no means proof, but it certainly points towards the idea.
    And the Bible is not meant as fiction. It is regarded as non-fiction, by us. We beleive those things actually happened. A Christian is to the Bible as a scientist is to a textbook.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 5:52 pm

  24. First of all, whether or not it is meant as fiction is debated. I know that’s not how you personally take it. Firstly, there are plenty of fiction books even today that present themselves as non-fiction. It’s just for the sake of a good story. Then, there are all of the Christians that don’t believe in the Bible as fact, and just think that it’s for inspiration.

    Could you please explain to me how the dead sea scrolls point to the idea of God existing, or provide evidence for such?

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 9:48 pm

  25. Aha! I’m glad that you brought this up about the old and new testaments. Let me ask you: do you have any problem with gays? If you really do only follow the new testament, you shouldn’t have any problem with them. All of the other supposed Christians, however, directly cite Leviticus when they rant against human rights.

    A servant is very different from a slave.

    In terms of examples of misogyny, violence, and contradiction, I do not have time for that just now. I promise I will get back to you as soon as I can – probably later tonight :)

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    27 Aug 10 at 9:51 pm

  26. The dead sea scrolls are the oldest known copies of parts of the Bible, and to me confirm the fact that the Bible hasn’t been changed by man between now and then(unless you take into account several denominational versions).
    I don’t have a problem with gays, but i do have a big problem with the sin they commit.
    Yes, Christians will cite Leviticus, but they should probably cite this passage instead:
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 : “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals(KJV reads effeminate, i think), nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (NKJV)
    The word used is “servant” and yes, in pur language there is a big difference beteen that and a slave. However, when you look up the word used in the Greek language(They have to give us different words that mean relatively the same thing during translation), the word used (if i can even spell this right) is “Souaos doulos”, which is defined as “A slave; therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency”

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    28 Aug 10 at 10:03 am

  27. Again, quite short on time now and will hopefully get back to you later with the other stuff. But times have changed, and people see many things in the Bible as being in fat morally wrong. What makes any of those things different than homosexuality?

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    28 Aug 10 at 3:19 pm

  28. I’m not exactly sure i understand your question, can you elaborate?

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    28 Aug 10 at 4:30 pm

  29. Hi Donny –

    There are a lot of suggestions, stories, or morals in the New Testament that a lot of people consider to be foolish or outdated – or, like you, say that it was just part of society back then. Well, what makes homosexuality any different? People were scared of gays back then, something so different from themselves and even “gross”. Well, it’s very similar today, but of course people have come to realize that homosexuality is not a choice, and that everybody should be treated with mutual respect and equal rights. What I’m saying is, what makes Jews okay (when the New Testament says they’re the sons of Satan) but gays still evil?

    Here’s a link for you. I don’t love linking things, but it’s pretty comprehensive and I think you should read it: http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/homosexuality.html

    I’ll post another comment ASAP with contradictions and other bad stuff from the new testament.

    Best,
    Quinn

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    29 Aug 10 at 10:59 am

  30. The Bible is full of bad morals and contradictions. I could write and write on this for days, but honestly I don’t have time, and I don’t want to write super-long posts. So instead I’ll just give you some links that I’ve bookmarked for just such an occasion. You can still feel free to directly dispute these links with me in your comments, and I’ll still reply as best I can as time permits.

    Immoral Bible:
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

    Jesus was a dick, and so were other biblical “heroes”:
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/killer.htm

    Biblical contradictions (note – this is not comprehensive, and I have not read all of it yet):
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

    Please, let me know what you think of any or all of this. I’m interested in what you have to say.

    Looking forward to your reply,
    Quinn

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    29 Aug 10 at 11:12 am

  31. I’m not saying Jews are ok. In fact, i would respect them alot more if they would do like they were told to do in the old testament(you don’t see Jews making sacrifices, or stoning people. at least not here in the U.S.).
    And homosexuality is a choice. no one is born gay– there is a point in your life where you have to go “I want to try that” and then you basically have a sick addiction with it. at least thats how i think it works, i’ve never had that problem before.
    What makes homosexuality different from just something seen as “gross” and makes it evil is, again that passage. They “will not inherit the kingdom of God” – plus it’s listed with other sins, such as covetousness, thievery, fornication, and extortion.
    The homosexual agenda can continue to pass their hatecrimes bills in order to quiet this, but that doesn’t matter, we’ll just keep doing it anyway.
    i’ll get back to you on those links later.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    29 Aug 10 at 7:14 pm

  32. Donny-

    With all due respect, your antisemitism and bigotry are not welcome here. I will say this once and only once, because I am trying to be polite – if you know what is good for you, you will shut your lying mouth about gays. And if you don’t, I will fight you to the end. Because you are using your hateful religion and your hateful god (loving, my ass) in the name of subjugation and discrimination, and that’s not okay with me.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    29 Aug 10 at 7:25 pm

  33. i see, so because i do not tolerate, my religion is “hateful” and so is my God. trust me, my God nor the religion he created hates anyone. Its just the sin that is hated. Why else would people like me say “You shouldn’t do that!” if we did’nt care about those people?
    and i sincerely ask you how i am lying.
    i’m going to look at your links here in a second

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 6:54 pm

  34. Maybe YOU don’t hate anyone. But that certainly doesn’t apply to the majority of Christians. You lie when you say that homosexuality is a choice. Not only is that ignorant, it’s just plain stupid. You’re ignoring science and fact. I didn’t choose to be straight, just like I didn’t choose to be white. And besides, what kind of a fucking idiot would choose to be gay? To be ostracized by their family? To be hated by religious people worldwide? To deny their chance at heaven, if there is such a thing? To be denied rights? To be put to death, in many parts of the world? Yet again, you are denying ration in the name of your religion – but I suppose that ration is the enemy of God.

    To tell these people that this is wrong isn’t helping them. It’s hurting them, more than you can ever know. Do you have any idea how many gays have killed themselves after being shunned? After failed conversions (which are impossible by the way)? After being denied the rights that everybody else gets? You are hurting them, killing their self-esteem, often KILLING them literally. All in the name of your bullshit god. You hurt people in the name of your imaginary friend. Have you ever told a gay person that their “choice” is not okay? Because you may well be a murderer.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 7:26 pm

  35. that applys to how the majority of Christians are supposed to be.. “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.

    and how is homosexuality not a choice? you are responsible for every one of your actions.
    and i don’t know why someone would want to be gay, the person in your link(westarintsitute) says “People turn to homosexual activity because heterosexual activity simply fails to satisfy them. They want more!”
    and while im on that note, i think he needs to also look up the term “sodomite”. Sodomite is derived from its origin, sodom. which, is one of the two places mentioned in Leviticus, and we know who they were.

    And it’s better to hurt them now and give them a chance to ask God for forgiveness than to say nothing and let them burn in hell.

    I’ll look at the other three links next

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 8:28 pm

  36. Oh, and gays should by no means be denied rights. There is no difference between me and a homosexual except for the sin that homosexual commits.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 8:31 pm

  37. I’m sorry that I posted that link. If I’d been more responsible and read it more thoroughly, I would have seen that it was full of crap.

    So, let me get this straight – you advocate murder or other causes of misery, just so that a person has an infinitesimal chance at getting into heaven (by which I mean, there’s an infinitesimal chance that heaven is real)? First of all, that’s just cruel. You have absolutely no right to make people’s lives miserable in the name of your imaginary friend and what some people think that he may or may not believe. Why don’t I go around and bully people into misery because I think it would give them a better chance of getting into Valhalla? Secondly, I thought people that killed themselves went to hell.

    Secondly, define sin. Based on the one passage you were able to provide me, it says nothing about homosexuality being sin. It simply says that they won’t inherit heaven. Dead babies don’t inherit heaven either, and I don’t exactly think that they’re sinners.

    Homosexuality is no more a choice than race. Could I get my skin color changed? I suppose so, with some advanced surgery and such. But it was never a choice, and it certainly is not a conscious action. There are a ton of studies that indicate the same. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation. It’s entirely genetic. Besides, if homosexuality is a choice, could you explain to me how so many people that are brought up being taught that gays are evil turn out to be gay, and then later kill themselves because of it?

    Yes, I know about “sodomites”. It does not have the same biblical definition as the colloquial definition.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 8:46 pm

  38. ok, as for the first one, “Immoral Bible” :
    whew, this is going to be a long night
    Topics covered in this link:
    Part 1
    Today’s religious and secular moral systems….do not matter. I could care less what people think about what is right and wrong, it’s what God thinks that really matters. And the religious systems should be the same way they were back with the early Christians.
    Hard Passages… As a Christian, i have to say that it really isn’t my place to say why God did this, what he was thinking, or what he sees as a “minor transgression”. God has his reasons.

    we’ll skip the interpretation based on point of view, for times sake, but if you want to talk about it, just let me know.

    Part 2
    see part one

    Part 3
    Curiosity… That was direct disobeyment of a command. that is something i can look at and say “God told them not to do that. That is why they were punished.”

    ill get back to you with the rest tomorrow.. im pretty tired

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 9:33 pm

  39. Part 1-

    How do you know what God thinks? How does anybody? The Bible wasn’t written by God. In terms of him having his reasons, don’t you think it’s pretty evil for him to subject so many people to misery for reasons that he doesn’t reveal, and that they don’t really care about?

    Part 3-

    People only have curiosity because of God (all theoretical, I am an atheist). So it’s his fault that they disobeyed commands. He, being all-knowing, also knew about them doing what they were doing (possibly before they did), and could have taken any number of countermeasures to stop it. If he doesn’t want anything done, he could put a stop to anything, easily. So it all boils down to him being an irresponsible, sadistic, asshole.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    30 Aug 10 at 9:57 pm

  40. No, i don’t know what God is currently thinking, but he told us what he thinks through his word(the bible). And yes, even though the written words themselves were not written by God, they were inspired by him. What that means is that God had them put into words what he wanted them to, not them putting into words what they thought was right.

    Not exactly.. its technicaly the devil that makes them want to disobey a command, but they can resist that curiosity in the same way they resist the urge to fornicate, or murder.

    And yes, he knew they were going to do it, before they did it. But he won’t take countermeasures to prevent them from doing it because free will must be involved. Otherwise, there really isn’t much point in us being here.

    Thanks for the thoughts, ill get back to you with the rest of that link and probably the rest of them later tonight.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    31 Aug 10 at 3:29 pm

  41. Why does God permit the devil to exist? God permits the devil, and thus God permits suffering. He wants people to be miserable. He wants disease, he wants suicide, HE WANTS SIN. Don’t you see? God has the power to stop anything he does not like, but does not do so because he likes watching people suffer and he likes watching people go to hell.

    And sorry for my ignorance, but could you please cite for me in the Bible exactly where it says that God inspired (or had exactly what he wanted put into) it? And could you please tell me how you know it to be true? And why you think there was no incentive for the authors to just make this stuff up?

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    31 Aug 10 at 4:21 pm

  42. No, he doesn’t intervene because he’s seeing whether or not we will qualify for heaven. It’s like an expirement– a scientist creates a controlled environment for a particular reason, but if he messes with that environment, it would change the results.

    I can understand the ignorance, i had to look that up, myself.
    Its in 2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…”(NKJV)

    there is a great incentive for people to make up stuff, in the name of religion. There are people all around the world who do this, who are called, in my religion, “false teachers.”
    But there are things in the Bible which, to me, dont make sense if it is coming from someone who has an incentive other than God.
    For example, in Galatians 1:8 says “But if even we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” (NKJV). So, why would man create this, without any way of going back and fixing errors, mistakes, or adding/taking away rules they didn’t like?
    Also, the story of Paul(assuming it is true), is one of throwing away alot of power. Why would he give up his power within the Jewish tradition, and his wife(i think.. ill have to study that part), for a life of being beaten, jailed, and ridiculed? The only other incentive than God he would have had was the moeny which came to him from various congregations he wrote to, which we know couldn’t have been that much because he also had to make tents to make due.

    Assuming the story of paul isn’t true, why write about the Christians being persecuted? Thats bad salesmanship.

    Sorry im taking forever on those links, ill get back to you when i can.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    2 Sep 10 at 11:01 am

  43. Right, but you see? This whole “qualify for heaven” thing? It was all God’s choice. Why doesn’t he just send everybody to heaven? Because he wants them to suffer. Now why does he want them to suffer? Supposedly because they sinned in life. Why did they sin in life? Because he did not stop them. Again, he could stop them at any point. They could still have free will! They would still have the choice to shoot a person. God would simply stop the bullet. There is absolutely no suffering in the world that God could not stop on a whim. Then there’s this whole crap about “a higher plan”. “My baby died because God has a higher plan.” It’s false. What the hell does God do with a baby in limbo (or some say hell)? Anything that God could accomplish with others, he could accomplish himself. He is omnipotent, and has no need for such things. The logic defeats itself.

    What makes your religion right and others wrong? What makes Jesus more credible than Krishna?

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God…” Tell me what you think this means, please. I think it means that these men were inspired by the IDEA of a god to write. It does not say that God wrote the bible. It’s saying that men were inspired to do so. I think you’re creating detail that simply isn’t there.

    As for Galatians 1:8, here’s what that says in modern terms: “If anyone tells you things that are contrary to the Bible, let him be condemned.” It’s a huge incentive, it’s the writers’ way of making sure that nobody would go against their work. It’s a safety measure.

    I don’t know about Paul, I don’t remember that story. A quick refresher if you will?

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    2 Sep 10 at 11:54 am

  44. im really tired right now, so im not going to write much..
    Paul was an apostle who went around on several missionary journeys throughout the middle-east and rome and such.
    for his troubles, he was often beaten and thrown in jail. you should read Acts, you’ll find the stuff he did in there.
    yeah, it is a safety measure, but what if you don’t like what it says? man usually has ways of being able to change the way things are done.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    2 Sep 10 at 9:22 pm

  45. I’m sorry, could you please clarify your question about the Bible verse? Basically, the Bible was made for the people of the time, not for the people of the future. Had the authors known how today’s society would be, they would have included additional verses (or so I’m guessing). So the authors put that in to protect themselves and their dogma, not the dogma and preachers of the future.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    2 Sep 10 at 9:42 pm

  46. No, although there is alot of things referring to the culture of the time, all of the commands mentioned are timeless.
    technology may change, but human nature doesn’t.
    And ok, i see where you’re coming from with that, but i still think that they would keep some way of being able to change it.
    Also, the only possible thing that a person could gain from making all this up, a the time, is money(embezzling tithes to the church). But even then, it’s unprofitable. You were persecuted by being jailed, eaten by lions, ridiculed, beaten, a mixture of those things, and probably more. Why would the authors write that, and take the consquences unless God was telling them to do it?
    As for God being evil because he likes watching people suffer.. Again, why would he say “Don’t do this”, and then send people to hell for doing it, when he wanted people to suffer? Why would he reward people for doing what he says(which isn’t making people suffer), by sending them to heaven?

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    3 Sep 10 at 7:34 am

  47. Donny, I’m jumping into this kind of late. I’ve enjoyed reading most of the posts between you and Quinn.

    I just have to say, whenever you try to rationalize your argument by assuming the irrational, you are fighting a losing battle. To me, it is irrational to believe that there is what is commonly agreed to as a place called “heaven” by the Christians. It’s impossible to prove that it exists, the only thing that you have to prove it is the writings of some ME mystics from 20 centuries back who have probably been mis- and re-interpreted more times than in a campus-wide game of “Whisper” at UCLA.

    However, pain, suffering, and all the rest of the evils we have here are definitely real, or at least they are physically quantifiable. A someone with a chronic pain condition, I can attest to its reality. So please don’t try to explain God’s part of this away by telling me that if I work hard and play by the rules I’ll get to “heaven” someday. It holds no weight with me whatsoever, nor with any rationalists.

    I’ll now step back and allow your conversation with our resident militant atheist to continue.

    Best regards,
    Wexler

    admin(Wexler)No Gravatar

    3 Sep 10 at 11:46 am

  48. The Bible was not written for others, the Bible was written for the prosperity of the authors (just like every other book). Like most other religious leaders, they were simply selfish.

    Forgive me, but it seems you’re having trouble grasping the “God is the guilty party” thing. Let’s bring it down to a lower level: that of a father and young child. The father tells his 3-year-old son that he is leaving home for a while. “Don’t get into the cookie jar,” says the father. However, rather than actually leaving, the father hides and watches his son. If the child is obedient, perhaps the father will congratulate the child. However, let’s say that the child was not so obedient. The father sees the child climbing up towards the cookie jar. However, being a good father, he goes out and stops his son before he can fall from the counter and injure himself, or eat a cookie and get sick. The father gently scolds the child, and explains to him why he did not want him to venture after the cookie jar. The child learns a lesson, and was not hurt in his ill thought out venture for cookies. Everybody wins.

    Now let’s move this analogy to God. Like the father, there is no way to know if God is there because he refuses to prove himself. However, that’s where the similarities stop. Father explicitly said not to take cookies. God, however, does not lay out the rules specifically. There are many books and text that claim to say what his will is, but they all contradict each other and they all contradict themselves. None of them has proof of God, and there’s absolutely no way to know which is right. So let’s say that the cookie is, oh, murder. Well God never explicitly told the murderer to be that murder was wrong, so how could they possibly know? The murderer then goes and commits their act, but God does not stop them. God does not stop them from falling off of the proverbial counter, nor does he stop them from taking the proverbial cookie. Quite the contrary, he lets them do all of these things, and then, rather than a scolding and a setting right, God sends them straight to an eternity in hell. The murderer didn’t even realize hell existed, because God had failed to make it clear.

    Now of course, the idea that murder is wrong is simply a human instinct, but hopefully you get what I’m saying.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    3 Sep 10 at 12:50 pm

  49. The bible does clearly lay out stuff. I mean, i don’t see how Matthew 19:17-19(NKJV) (for example), isn’t very clear.
    I see what you are saying about all these different bibles and whatnot. If you notice, just about every denomination has it’s own bible. These all have either things added to it or taken away from it(or both.), and thats why i don’t agree with those in any denomination.
    God also makes the existance of hell clear, just as he makes the existance of heaven clear.
    And even if he stops that kid, the kid is still going to try to get that cookie.
    Plus, how can there be sin if God stops it all the time?

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    4 Sep 10 at 10:38 am

  50. But how can anybody know which Bible is the right one? God refuses to intervene and point out the correct text, and thus billions are sent straight to hell. It’s God’s fault, directly.

    There doesn’t need to be any sin. God, as an omnipotent being, has the power to prevent anything that he does not want to happen. So either he enjoys watching people sin and then go to hell, or he doesn’t exist.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    4 Sep 10 at 11:09 am

  51. You look for a translation which is directly translated from the original text. This cuts out just about all denominational versions. I myself prefer either the old King James version or the New King James version.
    And yeah, God knows whats going to happen, and he can stop it. but he doesn’t. Does it mean he’s evil? no, it just means that someone somewhere didn’t listen to him, and therefore theyll pay for it someday.

    Donny from SCNo Gravatar

    10 Sep 10 at 8:37 pm

  52. The translations may be very inaccurate. For example, many experts say that the terms such as ‘homosexual’ are mistranslated, because they didn’t have words like that back then.

    Again, how can people listen to God when he does not provide evidence of his word? How do I know to listen to God over Krishna?

    Also, in terms of people ‘paying’, there’s no need. Rather than God simply teaching people a lessons (a la my parent analogy), he opts to send them to hell for eternity.

    admin(Quinlan)No Gravatar

    10 Sep 10 at 10:32 pm

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