In other words, business as usual.

People, take note. They are trying to sell you a falsehood.

I must say, the quote you gave is actually fairly deep. I don’t agree with it, but it is well-worded and insightful.

I’ll have to respond to the rest later, as I’m supposed to be working on other things at the moment.

@Yankyer Wanker
Tell me again how your words are actually arguments? Each of your responses has been a list of insults mixed with a few bits of logical arguments you take from someone else and fleshed out with so many lies I can’t help but laugh.

Which you probably won’t like to hear; your comments seem aimed at making me angry. Does it make you feel better about yourself to put others down? Or do you simply enjoy manipulating the emotions of others and watching the effects? I apologize for not becoming angry as you seem to desire.

You know, I kind of wish I was a trained liar. Perhaps then I could convince my wife I “need” cake for dinner. But jokes aside, I utterly refuse to visit any link or further respond to any other comments you make until you can learn to do so civilly. It isn’t really that hard, so I’m sure you can do it. And if not, its no skin off my nose.

You posted

I’m sorry, my having things to do offline means I “ran away”?

No, what means you “ran away” is that you are in a headlong gallop fleeing as fast as you can while the truth is nipping at your heels.

I have read the Church Handbook of Instructions so please don’t try to bullshit me. You and your ilk are taught to avoid any of the controversy over your cult by diverting the conversation to religious dogma of frighteningly detailed minutia. This is designed to make you seem sincere, well-informed, and disarming.

It’s not happening. To refresh your memory, I asked you to defend your statement that atheists had to prove a negative and my charge that you are not Christian by any other Christian’s definition of “Christian”. Just SAY it, Dan. IT’S REALLY SIMPLE. Just say “Mormons believe that Jesus died for our sins and that anyone who believes on Jesus is saved”.

You can’t. That’s NOT what you believe, unlike the rest of the thousands of Christian churches.

If you can’t answer a simple question about logic and won’t answer a simple question about dogma, then what are you good for? Maybe you could go to this page

http://glennbeckreport.com/glenn-beck-mormon/mormon-heresy-101/

and start at the top of the list and tell us why those are not heresies of your cult. I already know they are, so you can just ignore me if you want to. But I bet there are a lot of people reading this thread that want to understand exactly what you mean when you spew out weasel words.

To anyone who has even the slightest doubt that Mormons are trained liars, I suggest that you read the Church Handbook of Instructions. Also, visit the link below… and get it straight from the pen of someone who saw the light and had the courage to get away from these child-molesting assholes.

http://mrm.org/ten-lies

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen Roberts

I hope I don’t come off as rude by asking you a third time, but I truly would like an answer to my “Catholics outlaw Mormon marriage” analogy. I think your opinion on that will provide a great amount of insight into our conversation.

#God’s Grace

Here’s what I’ll do: I’m going to reinstate the bit stating that Mormons don’t accept it, but I’ll clarify that it’s strictly the Christian sense that they don’t accept. That seems fair to me.

#Becoming Saved

I’m glad you brought this up, because this is one of my absolute favorite religious topics. Imagine for a moment that you are a god, having created and ruling over a little planet. The people on this planet are god, and treat each other well. They are all very kind, and sin is at a minimum. But when they die, you don’t allow them salvation. Why? Because they didn’t spend years of their life prostrating themselves to you and telling you that you were awesome. Do we see how conceited God is now? No matter how many good deeds, no matter how many people a person has saved from starvation or misery, no matter how few sins this person has committed. If the best person on Earth did not spend hours sucking up to God, he will not be saved. Why do you respect such conceit?

As for a second analogy, a boss gives no promotions to the best and hardest workers. He only promotes the brown-nosers. This is patently unfair.

#Courtroom and Proof

I can prove many times over the nature of your hurt to others. When I write articles such as these, I am simply attacking the attackers. I’m just trying to rally support to stop you from doing things like you have been doing. It’s self-defense. Does this clarify?

#Equality of Sin

You’re quite right that the notion of rape being compared to petty theft is quite absurd. This is a notion that many Christians like to use and I’ve heard a few Mormons use as well. It is not in the Bible, in fact there are a few passages that would seem to counter it. Funny, isn’t it, how so many atheists seem more knowledgeable about the Bible than the devout? I’ve spent years researching it, and sadly so many Christians I talk to seem to follow blindly. This is another bit about indoctrination – you cannot teach somebody to follow blindly. I’ll get to that in a minute.

#Indoctrination

You admit that if God doesn’t exist, it’s harmful to teach the child that he does. I will admit that if God did exist, it would be harmful (to the child himself, merciful to others) to raise the child an atheist. So why, as I proposed, do we not just raise the children to be neutral? Encourage them to read religious texts as literature. Educate them about religion. But do not tell them what to think, and let them form their own opinions while they grow? Does that not seem fair? One thing, and I hate to say it, that I’ve got to credit Mormons for is their level of commitment to indoctrinating their children. Mormon adolescents know what they’re talking about, know what they’re supposed to believe. But it seems like many others that I talk to of other religions believe in God, call themselves Christian/Jewish/etc., and know nothing of the dogma. I think that this is just disrespectful. If you’re going to believe in utter crap, at least be able to back that utter crap up.

#Omniscience

Yet another point I’m glad you’ve brought up. I do think that, while the manufacturers shouldn’t necessarily be arrested as they were just men with jobs, the sale of tobacco and firearms should certainly be discontinued. But how do we compare this to God? Great question. If God was selling the tobacco, he would have the ability to prevent it from being harmful to the body. If God was selling firearms, he would have the ability to prevent them from working on humans. But he does not. God has created things far more evil, far more destructive than tobacco and guns. These things didn’t need creating. Even if he did want to create them, he could have created them harmless to humans. So you see, we don’t condemn and arrest the manufacturer that makes a car that crashes. We arrest the manufacturer who knew a car would crash, but also knew exactly how to make that car safe.

In terms of free agency, it’s possible that we simply think we have it. That is something I’ve heard before, that God, wanting us to be happy, simply gave us the illusion of choice. As I’ve stated, omniscience denies free will, since if God knows exactly what we’re going to do then he wants us to do it. Either we are slaves, or there is no God. I see no third option.

In terms of the mother – yet ANOTHER example of bad parenting on her part. If the child was mine, I would have sat down with him and explained why stealing is wrong and why disobeying me is wrong. I would have told him to just ask me nicely if he ever wanted anything, such as cookies. But no, this mother cannot be so kind and objective. She sets her child up to be punished. She KNOWS the child will go against her will. And she KNOWS that she is going to punish him for it. If the lesson can be learned in another way (many other ways in the case of God), why do we choose the route that involves punishment?

#God’s Evil

I kill 42 children and I’m a mass murderer. I’ll become a pariah and be given the death penalty. God kills 42 children (billions of children, actually) and though you’re a bit confused, he still must be a good god. I exterminate a race of people and I’m the next Hitler. I become a pariah, become infamous throughout written history, and be given the death penalty. God exterminates an entire race of people (many, actually) and he’s a good god. You’re even confused as to why he didn’t exterminate another. Do we see a pattern emerging here? It is written of God’s evils. We see proof of God’s evils by the day. But you refuse to believe that he is evil. But there are many lines in the Bible that occur only once, and yet you choose to take them as very important things (i.e. Lev. 18:22). You should read all of Leviticus, by the way. I’m pretty sure a lot of Mormons trim their beards, and that’s a sin. And you see, if you admit that the bits about violence could be false, what stops anything from being false? Why aren’t all the bits that say God is the LORD false?

I’ll also ask you, how do you know that LDS is the religion of God? You must realize that all practitioners of all other religions think that God belongs to their religion and none other. They can’t all be right.

Quinlan, you know see why I was surprised by your words and reactions. I’m used to guys like Yankyer Wanker. It was a nice reminder that there are atheists who can speak their mind, be blunt, and still be fairly civil. Unfortunately, I don’t meet many who fit into that category. At least atheists are in good company- it seems most people who are willing to discuss religion are jerks to anyone who doesn’t share their views.

I hope I haven’t come across as one.

@Yankyer Wanker: I do not earn a paycheck. The LDS church doesn’t need to pay people to go out and do things; we actually care enough to do it on our own. Shocking, I know. If you have seen me before, I don’t remember it. I tend to avoid conversations like have taken place here, because of people like you. Why should I try and explain or defend anything when those reading it are so close-minded and disrespectful that it just becomes one big pit of contention?

@Quinlan:
As an atheist, I will appeal to your objectivity in the matter of God’s grace. There are at least two interpretations of grace; the LDS interpretation and the more common interpretation.

Other Christians get very, very riled up because we dare to have a different view of grace than they do. Because its different, it must be heretical. This is a key point in their argument that Mormons are not Christian, for how can you be Christian and not believe in grace?

What is misunderstood is what, exactly, our take on grace is. Its funny, because grace is likely the least understood doctrine among church members. I’ve probably explained the church’s position on it to members almost as much as to those outside the church. There have been a couple of general conference talks in the last couple years about grace, trying to get church members to better understand the concept as well.

There are two types of death spoken of in the scriptures. Physical, and spiritual. God’s grace saves everyone from physical death, no matter what they do in life. It is universal and requires nothing on the part of an individual; they need not even hear of Christ, much less accept Him.

Spiritual death is defined in LDS doctrine as separation from God. Only those who return to heaven (or more specifically, the Celestial Kingdom) are saved from this death, as they are the only ones without anything separating them from God.

So, how does one become “saved”? How do you return to the presence of God?

Says Paul, In Acts 16:31- “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.”

Sounds simple. Believe, and presto, you’re in. Romans 10:9 is even more clear:
“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”

Hence we get many churches teaching that if you but say the magic words, somehow its okay to do anything you want. That sounds like a pretty good program; it appeals to human nature. Why, if I can be saved by saying a quick prayer, once, and do whatever I want (even murder) and still be saved, then why should I ever believe in a religion that teaches I must actually DO something?

So here comes the confusing part. James 2:17-22:
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”

And John records Christ as saying the following (John 14:12, see also verses 15, 21, 23-24):
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.”

So which is it? Do you need to merely believe, or do you need to actually perform work? Unless we are to take these different references as contradictions (which some do), then it is quite clear we need both.

To be saved from our sins, Christ has to accept us. It does not matter what you or I or anyone else does, we cannot qualify for salvation alone. Works never did and never will bring salvation; only Christ, through His atonement in Gethsemane and on the cross, can bring salvation. But He will not give it to just anyone.

The entire point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and hence, the LDS church) is learning how to receive salvation from God. God has asked us to do things, and we do them. Merely believing is not enough, and merely doing is not enough. Even if we do both, it wouldn’t help us one tiny bit, except Christ will then save us.

The often-used analogy is that of a child wanting to buy a bicycle. After saving his pennies for weeks, the little boy goes to the store with his dad to get a bike. He is so excited, until he sees the price tags and realizes he has but a few dollars, while the bikes cost far, far more.

We are like this little kid; we cannot earn salvation. As soon as we sin, we have disqualified ourselves. We are pretty much lost before we even know being lost is a possibility. Christ may forgive us, allowing us the chance at salvation. But Christ has requested we do our best to become like Him first, and then He will make up the huge difference so that we can return to God.

For a more detailed study, I suggest this link.
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvation-by-grace-or-by-works?lang=eng

No, LDS doctrine of grace is not the same as other Christian groups. But its core is the same- it is by grace we are saved, and nothing we can do could replace God’s role in our salvation.

#Courtroom and proof
I agree and disagree both. You see, we are both defendants and plaintiffs, for you accuse me of hurting others, while I accuse you of hurting Mormons. That is an oversimplification of our discussions, but true. My point in asking you for proof was to say that I cannot prove God exists to you, but neither can you prove He doesn’t to me, and therefore His “non-existence” does not give you grounds to disrespect me, destroy the church I belong to, or demand me to refute my beliefs. You didn’t use the same words I just did, but you did say this: “What am I trying to do, if not discrediting your disrespectful beliefs and fallacies?” Your inability to prove God doesn’t exist means you cannot claim it to be false, and while you may declare other aspects of my faith to be false, at least on that point you cannot do so.

As neither of us can prove God’s existence one way or the other, we are at a stalemate in this regard. And I’m fine with that; my goal is not to change your beliefs, but rather the means by which you choose to express them (primarily, the utter disregard for anything to do with God). Failing that, I can at least help you better understand our doctrine.

#Equality of sin
And what gave you the impression that God sees rape as equal to stealing a candy bar? True, both are sins, and both must be repented of, and both disqualify us for salvation unless or until Christ intervenes on our behalf. But the idea that they are equal in severity is absurd. I’ve heard it taught and never understood how someone could believe it. Regardless, LDS doctrine certainly says not all sins are equally bad; some are worse than others.

#God and evil
There are a great many things I do not understand about God’s dealings with ancient Israel. Frankly, I get frustrated with the Israelite’s stupidity. At one point, it seems God threatens to wipe them out and start over with Moses; why He didn’t do that, I don’t know.

In any case, I have two answers for you, and a possible third. The possible answer is that some of the scriptures as they are recorded are simply false. I have no way of saying which ones, or how many, could fall into this category. Or if any do. Hence, it is merely a possibility.

One of the two answers comes back around to perspective. Society looks at death as the ultimate punishment; God does not. To us, destroying a city is cruel and evil, yet do we not advocate it often? In war, do we not wipe out millions? Killing civilians is almost always condemned; no, instead we bomb their countries to dust, destroy their ability to make food, transport goods, maintain communications and power, and in short, do our very best to make sure everyone in an opposing country starves or freezes to death.

Traditionally, after destroying their ability to fight, they give up. But what if your opponent never does? Tell me, is it more merciful to make them starve or simply wipe them out with the sword? I honestly do not know the answer. What I do know is this life is a test, and God is the proctor. When He judges we have failed the test, there is no reason for us to continue, especially if we will do harm to others. So He removes us from the test.

My second answer to God’s apparent cruelty comes in the form of an analogy. I drive my car all the time. I can put gas in it, rotate the tires, all that jazz. I understand the basics of a combustion engine. But I do not understand more than the basics; I’m certainly no mechanic. If you asked me to name the parts of an engine, I could perhaps get 50% of the big ones, and maybe 2% of the smaller components.

I do not understand how it all works. But it is quite obvious to me that it does; I see it working all the time. I even have a pretty good grasp on its limitations and an idea how complex it all is.

I cannot answer every question you have. Want to know one of mine I can’t answer yet? 2 Kings 2:24. Why in the world does he seemingly murder 42 kids? It seems completely against the idea of a loving God.

But I’ve seen the Gospel work. I’ve felt God’s Spirit, I cannot deny He is there and that the LDS church is His church. But there are still many things I do not understand about the scriptures and some doctrines.

I hope you did not expect me to know everything. Because I simply do not. This lack of knowledge is often described as blind faith, and severely mocked by scientists. But look at it this way: when did mankind begin using fertilizer? How many centuries did it take us after that fact before we actually understood why fertilizer worked? Because they didn’t understand it, should ancient farmers be mocked for using fertilizer? Certainly not; they knew it worked, and I know God lives.

#Indoctrination
And how would you propose I back it up? There are a few studies about how satisfied people report themselves to be, with those who are heavily religious reporting they are more satisfied with life. But I don’t think those studies are particularly telling.

If you accept that living God’s laws brings us closer to Him, and makes us happier, is true, then it makes obvious sense that teaching children of God will make them happier. But if you do not accept that God exists, much less has laws or that obedience to said laws will do anything for us, well it becomes rather difficult to say teaching children about God is important. In fact, it would be quite harmful to the child to teach him something which is false.

So now we are back to trying to prove the existence of God. Funny how its all connected, wouldn’t you say? Its really hard to tear apart a building and have the second-story doors still work; likewise, its pretty rough trying to separate individual doctrines.

#Omniscient
If what you say is true, then we need to arrest and condemn every gun manufacturer. They made guns, knowing they can be used for evil, knowing some people will use them for evil, and therefore they are responsible for the actions of others. Because, after all, they provide the opportunity.

Likewise, we’d best arrest everyone in the tobacco industry. They keep making cigarettes, knowing the harmful effects. They know millions die, that millions of others are addicted, and therefore if they stop producing cigarettes they could save all those people by removing the option of smoking.

And why stop there? Car accidents kill, so we’d best get rid of cars. And buildings, because they can kill people when there are earthquakes, or trap them during a fire. In fact, because people sometimes trip on their shoelaces, we had best outlaw shoelaces as well.

Do you see how the conclusion you have reached is a logical fallacy? Merely creating something does not give you responsibility over everything that can be done with it, or will be done with it.

Let us examine the three attributes of God in question: kindness, omniscience, and the creator of humans with free agency.

We know humans have free agency. We cannot prove God created us, but if we operate under the assumption He did, just for a moment while we discuss the other two, we do not need to address this yet.

So is God kind, and is He omniscient? You contend He cannot be both. I say the mother can know her toddler will eat the cookies. Yet the mother is still kind because she made the cookies. She knows it will be better for her son to eat the cookies after having something more nourishing first; her son does not know this.

Let’s say the mother does turn away, and little Johnny eats some cookies. Will the mother punish him for disobeying? Yes. Will she also forgive him? Yes. Will she later make cookies, and will Johnny eat some when he shouldn’t? Almost certainly.

However, as Johnny grows, he will connect the ideas of punishment and commands. Johnny will learn that to avoid punishment, he must not do that which he is told not to do. Later, he will even learn why his mother didn’t want him to eat the cookies then.

In essence, this is a rough analogy for mortal life. We start out very ignorant. Over time, we grow and learn and mature. If we still chose to eat the cookies when we shouldn’t, and when we know better, we are no longer innocent little Johnny’s. Now we are willfully rebelling against a command. We know the rule, and we disobey it anyway.

We all do this. Should we try our best, and repent when we fail, we will find ourselves in a position like an average teenager. They screw up, but their parents will forgive them. However, if they continually disregard what they know to be good (they know it because they were taught it already), then the parents will not be so forgiving.

The mother is not evil because she made cookies, nor because she told her son not to eat them, nor for turning around and giving her son the opportunity to go for it and think he’ll get away with it. The mother would be evil if she did not try and teach her son, or if she removed every decision he had in life. By giving her son a chance to learn, the mother is doing him a service; eating a cookie before dinner has far less damaging effects than disobeying other commands, such as street laws. Best to learn when the consequences are small.

Now if we flip this back around, accepting that God can be loving and omniscient at the same time, we must combine it with the idea that He created us and with free agency. We know we have free agency, so the only question is whether He created us. That is not something I can prove by logic or evidence.

But the above explanations should help to show He could have created us, with our agency, and yet remain loving and omniscient. The goal is to learn, not to avoid all pain.

I’m sorry all of my posts end up being so long. I must not be intelligent enough to shorten them while retaining the ideas. Abe Lincoln once said something about that concept- apologizing for not taking the time to shorten a letter, I believe it was. I suppose I too should apologize for not knowing how to shorten these posts.

Look what Mormon God is letting happen today. The currency could implode, or so hopes Glenn. 18 million without any job or hope of getting one. Truth finally revealed that HR departments start working to fire your ass as soon as you reach 50, Mormon BVDs or not. And you will NEVER WORK AGAIN in your field. That’s the clearly diabolical part. The system tells us that we have to be educated to make a good living and then gets us average paying jobs that last just long enough after graduation to pay back the student loans.

But the Mormons wouldn’t know anything about BANKING, would they, wink wink nudge nudge?

So Dan Dan the Dogma Man is a fizzle. As soon as you confront him with the facts he runs away, just as all Mormons do unless they’re holding the guns. But on the merits of the truth, they don’t stand much of a chance.

What gets me about them is that they won’t stop the heinous fraud of calling themselves a “Christian” church. They’re not Christian and they’re not a church. They’re a temple, but not like the Jewish temple, it’s like the Masonic temple. Know the secret handshake, they let you in. Jews are more like Christians than Mormons are.

I can’t think of one good “net net” effect of the Mormons being on this planet. Everything they might claim to be doing as “good” is so grossly overbalanced by destructive, anti-social, illegal, and immoral acts that it all flies into the trash heap where it belongs.

If I had a 14 year old daughter and the 50 year old dude across the street started demanding sex from her I’d put a stop to that in a quick hurry. But not you, Dan. A good Mormon like you knows that your stake leader can do whatever he wants, whether it’s illegal or immoral or both. Y’all just look the other way. Nice, real nice. A church based on polygamy and child molesting.

The only conversations I have with the mission boys any more is to ask them if they want to be saved from the horrible predicament that they’ve got themselves into. I tell them that we don’t have a lot of money but we can get them to a safe house where nobody who comes looking for them will find them and they can live their lives in safety, far from the influence of the Mother Ship.

None have taken me up on it yet, but I’ll bet that someday they will. I wonder if it will be one of them or both.

#Garments

I understand the difference between a sacred thing and a secret. The difference is that the sacred thing is COMPLETE BS, as opposed to BS going towards some purpose. I’ve been mocking God for a good many years now. He’s an asshole and he deserves it. Furthermore, I think that anybody so far gone as to have been gallivanting about in said garments is too far indoctrinated to see the message of this article anyway. I appreciate your concern, I really do. But I won’t remove something just because it displeases somebody.

#Homosexuality

I seem to recall that all sins were equal, so what’s all this talk of ‘more grievous sins’? And again, do you have a scrap of evidence for ANY of this story about sins separating people from God? Even if it was true, wouldn’t separating themselves from God be an individual man’s choice? If he’s not harming you, you have absolutely no right to interfere with the livelihood of another man. If you don’t mind, I’d also very much like to know what you think of my example of Catholics outlawing Mormon marriage.

#Indoctrination

You say that when children learn of God, they’ll be happier. Can you back this up? And even if you could, that happiness is at the cost of the happiness of many others. I also contend that it’s majorly harmful to the child himself.

*Praying and Miracles

I’ve witnessed neither of these things. Anybody that says that they have has no evidence. Almost all of these incidents of ‘prayers being answered’ were just things that the people could have accomplished alone. Coincidence?

*”God can do all things, but He refuses to do evil things.”

If you’re speaking as a Mormon, who believes in the Bible, then this is completely and demonstrably untrue. In the Bible, God killed 70,000 innocents when David ordered a census. He orders the destruction and looting of 60 cities so that Israelites (his favored race… racism much?) can live there. He orders the murder of all people of Jabesh-gilead, EXCEPT for the virgin girls, taken as wives to be raped. Later, when his followers want another virgin, God instructs them to kidnap and rape one. Come back to me with a straight face and say that none of these things were evil.

*Omniscient

Yes, they are contradictory statements. That’s the point. Two logical yet contradictory conclusions form an easy disproof of God. Long story short, God cannot be good, omniscient, and have created us with free will.

As for your example of the mother, I’ve actually used an analogy very close to that one before (mine involved the father with the cookies though). And yes. If the mother more or less knows that the child wants the cookies, and she puts them within his reach, then it’s entirely her fault when he gets them. The child is a toddler. His capacity is much less than hers to resist, obey, and be good. In this example it was she being a bad parent.

If God knows exactly what we will do, we do not have true free will. If we can do nothing, make no choice that God did not know about and thus INTEND us to make, what are we but slaves?

You can’t

1) dispute that the burden of proof is on the affirmative
2) dispute that you are either mistaken or lying about what “grace” means to the Mormons compared to what it means to ALL others who claim the mantle of “Christian”.

So what exactly is that you’re doing? Trying to earn a paycheck? I have seen you somewhere else, haven’t I? I will try to remember where and then we will find out how the Mormons are so corrupt that they feel it necessary to send out ringers to websites like this to plead their case.

Don’t feel bad, Dan. I just read that the US Army is paying people to do this, too. So if you want to moonlight, you can Be All You Can Be plus you can still be as ignorant as hell about your own beliefs.