Glenn’s Mormon cult membership VS fundie Christians, part 2
Not just about fresh-faced boys and a great choir

The Czars had a great choir, too.
I think the first exposure or awareness I had to the Mormons was just past the midpoint of the last century. My grandfather, retired from his job as county assessor, had taken a part-time job doing accounting work at a gas station in our little town. Our family didn’t have much money in those days so Gramps picked up a Christmas LP with a variety of artists singing Christmas carols. I think it was from Firestone tires and I think I may even still have it somewhere among my 1500 albums. If my memory serves me correctly, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sang “Adestes Fedeles” (O Come All Ye Faithful). We listened to that record hundreds of times over the years.
So, growing up, the only thing I knew about the Mormons was that they had a great choir. We didn’t have a Mormon church in our city, and we were near the end of the line, so to speak, so perhaps the Mormons hadn’t gotten around to mapping out our community yet. If they ever showed up at our door, they never got through it. During this period of my life, I was very much interested in religion and was even considering a career as a pastor at one point, which amuses me now given my agnostic/atheist beliefs. During my second year of college, there was a Mormon in our dorm who happily gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon, which I prized and kept near my Bible and Satanic Bible. Back in those days, people used to sit around and have “bull sessions” about various topics, and religion was a favorite as it always included plenty of semi-informed speculation about what this or that might mean.

It's no use trying to hide from them, they'll catch up with you anywhere you go.
Flash forward to a new century, in a quiet town in a quiet state. Our doorbell rang about every 6 months and my wife would coldly yet politely shag the two young “elder” Mormon lads who rang it down the road. This happened several times before I decided to let them in, sit them down and give them hell, and THEN shag them down the road once and for all. They sat down and we chatted about normal stuff for a while and during that conversation I realized that I really liked these fresh-faced kids. They reminded me of me when I was about their age, earnestly and eagerly wanting to talk about their religious beliefs and proselytize if the opportunity presented itself. (Of course, in my day, I was all about LSD, not LDS). We began to talk about religion, and I gave them fair warning that we both have religious beliefs (my wife is Catholic) and on we went. There was slight pressure in the conversation towards the Mormon beliefs but it was subtle and respectful. After a while they said they had to go but they wanted to pray for me first. I thought that was sweet. I invited them to come back any time, adding that they were welcome to come in out of the rain or cold, to warm up, have some water, use the bathroom, or whatever.
I think we saw that pair of young men two more times. One of them was from Portland, Oregon, and his mission was almost over. A second pair came in once, and after that we haven’t seen any more Mormon missionaries. From what I know now, I expect that records of each contact were carefully noted and reported. I think we have used all of our allotted opportunities to become Mormons.
I wouldn’t have ever even thought of Mormons again, possibly, if it wasn’t for Glenn Beck. That would have been unfortunate, because despite being a political junkie I may have never bothered to notice them because they operate in such secrecy. If you’re not actually looking for Mormon political actions and history you won’t see it because they rarely allow themselves to be seen. That is, unless you’re one of the people who they screw, as they did in to LGBTs in California and Maine by pumping millions of dollars into a hate-filled smear campaign against the civil right of marriage for all. This one I find to be rather interesting given the role of the government in ending polygamy in 1890 and the struggle that the Mormons fought for 50 years to hold to it.

Left Coast cartoon sums it up pretty well.
A quick side note. I got an email just yesterday from Fred Karger of Californians Against Hate. The Mormons have come out publicly supporting Salt Lake City’s proposed ordinance which prohibits discrimination against LGBTs regarding employment and housing. The ordinance also protects those with disabilities. Fred is hopeful that this is an opening step in a LDS church that is more open to granting civil rights to LGBTs. I take a more cynical view. In the last days before the November 3rd election in which Maine overturned their LGBT marriage law, there was a dispute between gay LGBT advocates and NOM (National Organization for Marriage) which pumped $1.6 million into overturning the marriage law in Maine. A federal court ruled that NOM must disclose its donors under Maine law; they still haven’t complied with the ruling and I believe that this latest news from the Mormons “supporting” LGBT civil rights in Utah is pure PR. They know that they are about to be cold-busted in Maine as the primary donor to NOM’s campaign.
Mormon History: steeped in blood, fraud, racism, sexism and lawlessness
This section is not intended to be comprehensive nor is it a mini-course in comparative religion. The history of all religions could be written in the blood spilled by their adherents. In any religion there is an “in” group and an “out” group defined by a dogmatic set of rules and codes that the in group follows and the out group doesn’t. The history of early Christianity has been filtered through the ages, but Mormon history is relatively recent so we have modern accounts dating back to its very beginnings.
Fraud

This guy was a fraud, a cheat, a murderer, a charlatan, a polygamist, oh, and by the way, the founder of the Mormon church.
The Mormon faith is founded on documents supposedly found by Joseph Smith, a self-proclaimed “Glass looker” (also known as “money digger”) who said he could see things that other people couldn’t see by looking into a glass or special stone. One of the things he looked for was buried treasure, which explains why he never had any money. In the 1820s phonies like Smith were commonplace. In 1826 Smith was hired by Josiah Stowell in New York to find what he thought was a Spanish treasure buried on his farm. Smith spent a month on the farm living off of his host’s hospitality, and came up empty handed. After that small fiasco Smith was brought up on charges by those close to Stowell; Arad Stowell, Josiah’s son, was one who testified at the trial that he had observed Smith’s operations and that he was a fraud. Smith was convicted of Disturbing the Peace. (An odd charge, I think).
There has been a lot of controversy about the Book of Mormon’s origins, authenticity, and even plagiarism. The story is that Joseph Smith was out money digging and was guided to a buried box of golden plates which were there under the protection of the angel named “Moroni”. This find supposedly took place September 22, 1823, near Manchester, New York. This Moroni was a “rules person”, and Smith was not allowed to have the plates until he followed a bunch of rules, including coming back to them every year for 4 years. Smith finally got the plates but was not allowed to show them to anyone (of course). The plates were written in a language Smith referred to as “reformed Egyptian”, which is a language that no linguist has ever seen. It has no trace of existence on this planet. Smith began translating the plates by looking at his seer stone in the bottom of his inverted stovepipe hat, dictating the English to several people who took turns writing it down.

The Golden Plates which contained the Book of Mormon written in "reformed Egyptian". Gimme a break.
Since there are but a few eyewitness accounts of the plates, and since the accounts of what they actually looked like don’t match, there is not even any usable circumstantial evidence that proves they existed. Therefore the Mormons accept their existence and the authenticity of their translation as an article of faith. Those of us who don’t believe in magic tricks would be more easily convinced if there was any tangible evidence besides a book that is full of contradictions, inaccuracies, and even some suspected plagiarism. Passages from the Book of Mormon are almost identical to passages in the KJV of the Bible, which is odd because the plates were alleged to be 1100 years old and therefore predate the King James Bible, which was written in 1611, creating a compelling point for calling the golden plates story nothing more than hokum and charlatanism.
There is another book of rules called the “Doctrines and Covenants”, originally published in 1833 as the “Book of Commandments”. In 1834 the book was pared down to what were considered the most significant ‘revelations’. There was another version printed in 1876 contains disputed material attributed by some as revelations of Joseph Smith. There are about 100 revelations and lectures in it. So here’s another opportunity for FRAUD.
If a church claims that one of its bedrock doctrines is the word of God through revelation, and that God speaks directly through the Apostles, then it’s fraudulent when the church changes its dogma as a matter of convenience. It provides a stark example of how the so-called God-given code is nothing more than a phony rule somebody made up that worked out for them at the time but became uncomfortable or inconvenient so it gets changed. This is not a “revelation” of God’s will, it’s a cynical game of opportunism played by the church Leadership.
About Face on Polygamy

In the world of Mormonism, men have needs, too many to be met by a single wife.
Note: the information regarding Mormon polygamy below is largely sourced from what is considered to be an authoritative paper titled “LDS Church Authority and new Plural Marriages, 1890-1904 written by D. Michael Quinn. Quinn actually ran this by Mormon President Gordon Hinckley before publishing it. It’s available at http://www.lds-mormon.com/quinn_polygamy.shtml but I get spooky popups from the site, I will just warn you in advance.
The Mormons have taken a dogmatic U-turn at least twice. The first example occurred in 1890 when they suddenly renounced polygamy at the same time that Utah was being held up from statehood over the polygamy issue. The church leadership had been fighting a losing battle with various state and local governments over this issue since the church formed in 1830. They were hounded out of New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois where Joe Smith was killed while in protective custody in Carthage. (Accounts say he killed two of his assailants with a pistol before they killed him). Brigham Young move the church to Utah starting in 1847 to avoid persecution for polygamy and other heresies.
It wasn’t until 1852 that the Mormons made official what was already known by every community within they had lived, namely that they practiced plural marriages. In February 1851, Mormon President Brigham Young announced to a meeting of the Utah territorial legislature that he had more than one wife. Then in August 1852, Young announced that “celestial marriage” was a doctrine of the church.
The Mormon church and its leadership were willing to break local laws, lie to authorities, and even develop the posture that truth was relative, not absolute in order to hold on to polygamy. In 1890, a document called the “1890 Manifesto” (Czary, eh, Glenn?) surfaced which declared an end to polygamy but muddied the waters with a whole big lot of controversy as to its origins, its meaning, its scope of authority, and place in the church’s hierarchy of dogma. Was it a revelation? Was it part of the D&C?
The short answer is that there is no short answer. The US Supreme Court had just upheld anti-bigamy laws in 1879. The Mormon leadership was on the run in Mexico. Anti-Mormon forces in Utah were gaining more control; Mormons were denied voting rights and barred from public office. Church property was being seized. The church was in turmoil and confusion for decades over this issue. So… zing! Just declare the sacrament that is central to the faith, the practice that is the life of practicing Mormons, to be null and void! Afterwards, persecution tapers off, Mormons regain control of Utah, which becomes a state, and the rest is history.
Another U-Turn of Convenience: Wassup, bro?
For 150 years, the Mormons taught that all blacks are cursed by God. This is just a plain, ugly fact. It is documented in the D&C. It is reflected in church policies, and their official’s public statements. This is well-documented at the following link http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm where specific quotations from the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and church leadership spanning those 150 years can be found. The racial prejudice was founded on their interpretation of the Bible, no less, saying that all black people were descended from Cain and therefore were not only inferior beings but were also cursed by God to live lives of suffering and servitude.

Yo, my new brother, was HAAPENIN, come on in, ya'll are cursed but you know how to keep our shoes SHINED
But… wait! In case of emergency, break dogma. For 150 years the Mormons refused to allow black men into “the Priesthood”. But in 1978 the pressure mounted on the church to a point where the Apostles had another convenient “revelation”. It might have had something to do with Stanford University’s declaration that they were banning football games with BYU because of racism. Maybe it was the pending NAACP lawsuit filed on behalf of Byron Marchant, a black man denied the position of Scoutmaster because the church required all Scoutmasters to be members of “the Priesthood”. For whatever reason, there was another “revelation” that blacks could now be received into “the Priesthood”. Strangely, the text of the “revelation” has never actually been revealed. It’s only been included as an “Official Declaration” in the D&C, which states that the “revelation” occurred. However, although the policy has changed, the idea that black people are inferior and cursed has NOT changed. This dichotomy of practice vs dogma is a perfect example of the church adapting itself to the environment.
Please note carefully: although the church institutionalized racism, this is NOT a universally-accepted doctrine of all Mormons nor has it been over the last 150 years. Many Mormons have been outspoken challengers of this policy and have championed black civil rights.
Blood on the sand, blood on their hands
In 1857, the Mormons in Utah were in a state of rebellion against the US government over the polygamy issue and others as well. The Mormons had formed a militia named the Nauvoo Legion and loudly claimed that they would defend Utah from any invading force. President Buchanan was incensed by this and ordered a force of 2,500 regular army to Utah to restore order.

About 140 human beings, men, women, and children were murdered in cold blood at Mountain Meadows on 9/11/1857. Maybe Glenn Beck should start a 9/12 Project about THAT.
Against this backdrop, a wagon train originating from Arkansas called the Fancher-Baker party passed into Utah territory on its way to Oregon. Church leaders wanted to off the interlopers, but they didn’t want to have to take responsibility for killing them. Their Big Plan? They dressed up like Indians. WTF? The initial attack became a siege as the wagon train put up a fight. After some period of time, the Mormons persuaded the wagon train to surrender. What happened next was horrible.
On September 11, 1857, at Mountain Meadows, the members of the wagon train surrendered to the Mormons. Every man, woman, and child that was deemed old enough to recount what happened was executed in cold blood. The men were shot by the Mormons. The women and children were killed by Piaute Indians who were assisting in the siege. Approximately 18 children were spared execution but lost their families and were assimilated into the Mormon whack factory. All the possessions of the wagon train were stolen, including 800 head of cattle.
Brigham Young’s role in the slaughter of humans like animals is controversial. But we know a few things. First, he stated “If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats” during a sermon he delivered under the subject “Red hot blood atonement”. Second, he orchestrated a coverup to blame the murder on the Indians. There is a theory that Young ordered the massacre personally, sending a message to the militia, “Brethren, do your duty.”
A woman is a wondrous thing to own

Ah, the good old days, when men were men and women knew their place.
The Mormon church is designed by men to serve men and keep women subordinate. Women are excluded from holding positions of authority but all women are subservient to that authority. Women are not only subordinate in this life, but in the Mormon afterlife as well where they will fulfill their “equal power” by spitting out babies like a Tommy gun.
The male chauvinism of the Mormon church is codified by statements of Leadership and teaching documents such as “The Latter-day Saint Woman – Basic Manual for Women”. In these writings, women are not only ordered to embrace their inferiority to men by affirmation, they are to embrace it spiritually as well. Further, women have no control or say over the vast Mormon fortune; this is the provenance of men alone. Women are required to serve the church when called without pay.
The pervasive integration of Mormon church membership into family life guarantees that women will get no better treatment at home than they do within the church. Women are expected to obey their husbands, serve them, support them, and make babies for them, lots and lots of babies.
Is the Mormon Church a Cult?

Do Mormons worship a false god or even Satan?
I have tried to give a brief overview of events and people who have shaped the Mormons into what they are today. I have not yet addressed some of the dogma that separates them from Christians. The church uses the words “Jesus Christ” in their official name; however, they hold beliefs that the Christian world consider to be heretical, non-Christian, and fraudulent. To make this concise I’m going to just list some of them, as I’m already up to 3000 words for this part of my article and I don’t want you to have to take a whole day to read it. The next 10 points are written from a Christian point of view, which I am not, but know quite a bit about.
Heretical views of the Mormon Church:
- Mormons believe in polytheism, or multiple Gods. They believe that men can become God in their own universe.
- Mormons believe that God is flesh and bones, just like humans.
- Mormons believe that God is married and that all spirits of all people on earth were conceived through sex.
- Mormons believe in polygamy, even though they have a “revelation” to stop practicing it.
- Mormons believe that God has evolved.
- Mormons believe that Jesus is the “spirit brother” of Satan and was not born of the Holy Spirit and Mary, but instead through physical incest.
- Since 1830 the Book of Mormon, supposedly the scripture, has been changed 4000 times.
- You will never see a cross, the symbol of Christianity, in a Mormon temple as they do not accept grace from God
- There is no corroboration with the Book of Mormon in history, archaeology, geography, linguistics, or anthropology.
- The Bible has little use in the Mormon worship service and usually only appears in the temple for Easter and Christmas.
I thought it might be useful to take a quick trip through to the characteristics of cults. Here’s a “checklist” I found that covers a lot of what I have been thinking about since I got interested in this topic.
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups – Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
* The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
* Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
* Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
Now we know. Briefs, sort of. What you have to wear to temple, under what you have to wear to temple.
* The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
* The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
* The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
* The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
* The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
* The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
* Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
* The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
* The group is preoccupied with making money.
* Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
* Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
* The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
What it all boils down to is control. If you belong to an organization that controls a large part of your life, including the way you behave and the way you think, you may be a member of a cult. Personally, the Mormons fit the definition above matching all but a couple of characteristics but a few of them. They control you, and if you try to get away from them they will make your life miserable.
NEXT: Glenn Beck, Mormon convert and de facto Teaparty Minister of Propaganda

#GlennBeck Mormon cult membership VS fundie Christians, part 2 – http://bit.ly/1ylSTo
William Wexler
13 Nov 09 at 4:29 pm
Mormons Are New Testament Christians, not Creedal Christians
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This post helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
Baptism:
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.
The Trinity:
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration? The Nicene Creed’s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.” Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. . Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. For example, it was an emperor (Constantine) . who introduced a term, homoousious, which defined the Son as “consubstantial” (one being) with the Father. Neither term or anything like it is in the New Testament. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.” Furthermore, 11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were non-Trinitarian Christians http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/richard_price.php The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts and the Founders.
Theosis
Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” Irenaeus wrote in the late 2nd Century: “we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods” Justin Martyr in mid 2nd Century said: “all men are deemed worthy of becoming ‘gods,’ and of having power to become sons of the Highest” Jerome wrote that God “made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods.” Clement of Alexandria said worthy men “are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior.” Origen in reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 said “Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God . . As, then there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.” The Gospel of Thomas (which pre-dates the 4 Gospels, but was considered non-canonical by the Nicene Council) quotes the Savior: “He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him,” (Gospel of Thomas 50, 28-30, Nag Hammadi Library in English, J.M.Robinson, 1st ed 1977; 3rd ed. 1988) For further information on this subject, refer to http://NewTestamentTempleRitual.blogspot.com The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with Early Christian church leaders regarding theosis.
To paraphrase Origin’s thoughts in the words of Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: “There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to whom all others are subject”. Becoming like God is not saying we will ever be equal to Him, frankly we won’t and can’t He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.
The Deity of Jesus Christ
Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless.
The Cross and Christ’s Atonement:
The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. The Emperor Constantine first used it as a battle symbol for his soldiers in his quest for the Roman Empire . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection, not his crucifixion on the Cross. [If your son died in a car accident, would you hang a replica of the smashed car around your neck!] Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming, which give us assurance of the re-uniting of our bodies and spirits. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Jesus Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.
Grace Versus Works
One Evangelical Christian author wrote of his sudden discovery that his previous beliefs about salvation were very different from those held by the early Christians:
“If there’s any single doctrine that we would expect to find the faithful associates of the apostles teaching, it’s the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. After all, that is the cornerstone doctrine of the Reformation. In fact, we frequently say that persons who don’t hold to this doctrine aren’t really Christians…
Our problem is that Augustine, Luther, and other Western theologians have convinced us that there’s an irreconcilable conflict between salvation based on grace and salvation conditioned on works or obedience. They have used a fallacious form of argumentation known as the “false dilemma,” by asserting that there are only two possibilities regarding salvation: it’s either (1) a gift from God or (2) it’s something we earn by our works.
The early Christians [and Latter-day Saints!] would have replied that a gift is no less a gift simply because it’s conditioned on obedience….
The early Christians believed that salvation is a gift from God but that God gives His gift to whomever He chooses. And He chooses to give it to those who love and obey him.”
—David W. Bercot, Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, 3rd edition, (Tyler, Texas: Scroll Publishing Company, 1999[1989]), 57, 61–62.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with the earliest Christians that grace is conditioned upon obedience to Jesus Christ’s commandments.
•
Definition of “Christian”: .
But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer. It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.
• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:
The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this: “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.) Martin Luther had similar thoughts: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.” He also wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
Mormons Are Christian
13 Nov 09 at 10:35 pm
I’m glad that you took the time to post to my website. I am not a theological scholar, but I believe that you raise some valid points and I will do my very best to dismantle them, one at a time.
I suggest, if you haven’t already, that you read the list of Mormon heresies I put at the end of Part 2 of this series. I will be raising those points as I proceed.
The title of this series is Glenn Beck’s Mormon Cult Membership VS Christian Fundies. I predict that the Teaparty movement will come apart on religious fault lines. In Part 3 I will talk about Glenn Beck’s relationship with the Teaparty movement and in Part 4 I will provide more detail about the battlefield upon which the Mormons and Fundies compete for the soul of the conservative movement.
Thank you for your post, please check back for rebuttals of your points, one at a time.
-Wexler
admin
14 Nov 09 at 6:23 am
Good article very informative. This is off topic I realize but that is without a doubt the most bitching drawing of Satan I have ever seen.
Razorgeist
15 Nov 09 at 2:29 am
This post is directed at “Mormons Are Christian”.
No, you’re not.
The very first line in your post says that you’re not “Creedal” Christians, you’re “New Testament” Christians. You then proceed to contradict yourself on a number of points and omit other points that are salient to the definition.
Baptism: When a person becomes baptized is irrelevant, except that they have to be alive. Jesus never baptized a dead person, but he did baptize persons of all ages. Mormons baptize the dead.
The Trinity: Mormons believe that God and Jesus exist today as flesh and blood. That is heresy.
Theosis: I believe you are trying to make a case for polytheism. Mormons believe that each MAN becomes GOD equal to GOD and goes to live in their own universe. This is heresy.
The cross and atonement: You say that atonement was somehow achieved in Gethsemane. The Christian world says that atonement was attained on the cross. Your view is heresy.
Grace vs works: You say that people attain grace by obeying Christ’s commands. (As an aside, I think a whole hell of a lot of Mormons are in deep trouble if you think you’re obeying Christ’s commands). The Christian world believes that salvation is a gift of grace from God and that is why Christ died on the cross. Your view is heresy.
Definition of Christian: Just because you don’t think that Catholics and Protestants are Christians doesn’t mean that YOU are Christian. Your cult of heresy doesn’t measure up to core Christian beliefs as described above. You cannot be polytheistic and Christian at the same time. You cannot believe that you can attain salvation through works alone and be Christian. You cannot believe that God and Jesus are flesh and blood and be Christian. You cannot believe that Jesus and Satan are twins. You cannot believe that YOU will become a God in your own universe. That’s heresy.
You have a separate scripture book (Book of Mormon) and that is heresy.
I could go on but I think you get the drift. If you have anything relevant to add to this thread you are welcome to post it but I will not entertain a rehash of modern Mormon mythology that restates the same case.
-Wexler
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15 Nov 09 at 7:57 am
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